Maria Belanic (00:00)
Hi, I'm Maria Belanic. I'm a bereaved mom, certified grief educator, and speaker. And my journey started actually even before my son passed away, because I didn't realize how much I had been holding my breath throughout his illness.

Maria Belanic (00:18)
And then when he did pass away, all of a sudden grief and loss entered my world. And no one told me how I was supposed to be. And with everyone saying, stop being stuck, when are you getting over it? I stayed 10 years in a blur where I functioned, but I wasn't totally present.

Maria Belanic (00:41)
And from there I actually realized and came to recognize how grief is misunderstood, how there's this invisible weight that we carry, making us feel that we're wrong and that there's something wrong with us and we're not doing things right. And there's so much judgment in there. And because of that journey in my experience, this is the reason I walk.

Maria Belanic (01:09)
with other bereaved parents in their journey, showcasing how love and loss live in one breath. And I thank you so much, Dr. Verga, for having me on your podcast and having a conversation with you.

Jessie (01:27)
Yep, absolutely. So I wanted to maybe back up a little bit and if you wouldn't mind just you know, let's talk a little bit about, you know, your background and then a little bit about your son just from the beginning.

Maria Belanic (01:44)
Okay. So realistically a from my background, I was in real estate ages ago for twenty six years

Jessie (01:50)
Mm-hmm.

Maria Belanic (01:51)
and had never

Maria Belanic (01:55)
Contemplated that grief would be my lane. And I don't think anyone in the grief world ever experiences or ever thinks of I'm going to be in the grief lane one day. For me, because of my son's illness, so my son was diagnosed at 16 with an incurable blood cancer. And that's a cancer journey where we had fear and hope living at the same time. Because for 11 years, there's lots of

Maria Belanic (02:23)
Crises, there's treatments, there's hospital rooms, and that became my normal or our normal. And it's one of those things that you have this expectation that that's what it's going to be all the time. Even the times when he almost lost his life, we never thought it was possible until the day he did die. And then that shatters because that's not an expectation.

Maria Belanic (02:53)
I always go, even if death is expected, it never really is something that we plan for or know how to deal with. And it becomes a shock in what it is to our system. And because of that, I entered a period of where I didn't know what to do, of

Maria Belanic (03:21)
Am I doing things wrong? How do I fix myself? Because that's what many grievers are led to believe. We're led to believe that grief is something that's easy, that yes, there's this painful period, and then we fix it and get back to normal. And we don't. And that is part of why my 10-year blur is, is because the more people told me to get back to normal, when are you getting back?

Maria Belanic (03:49)
There? Why are you still stuck? There's this aspect where healing almost feels like a fear in itself. Will I forget my person? Am I going to forget my son? How do I move forward in a world that no longer has him? And from there came the understanding for me personally, in my journey, that's not what grief is.

Maria Belanic (04:19)
Grief is love and loss, and I'm breathing it together at one time. And because of that, I figured out that I gotta support others because if I have it wrong, how many others are believing in the stages, are believing that they need to be fixed when we're not broken?

Maria Belanic (04:45)
It's discovering a path that works for each of us of how do we walk in our journey of grief. Because it is a journey. As a bereaved parent, I'm going to be a bereaved parent for the rest of my life. That's not going to change. I can now experience joy, experience laughter, and experience the possibilities of what life holds for me. And still knowing that I will always miss my son.

Maria Belanic (05:15)
That doesn't change.

Jessie (05:18)
curious you know I'm I'm not a mother I think many people can relate to losing a loved one but I think it's an entirely different type of loss right when it's when it's a child so I'm curious I I don't think it would be fair to ask you to describe it but I'm curious as to you know in that journey of of your son battling cancer you know how how

Jessie (05:48)
How was that when you start to contemplate, you know, there is this other looming dark side of of a possibility of something that could happen? That's always there, but that I find is sometimes much more in your face when it's an illness like cancer. So how what was what was that like in in holding on to that that hope and hoping that he makes it through? What was that journey like for you guys?

Maria Belanic (06:14)
It's a roller coaster. I don't know if anybody likes roller coasters, but you have like those dips and and ups. And the ups, of course, is when it's like, okay, things are working, everything's gonna be fine, and then the dips are when a crises happen. I never prepared for that. for me and even for my son, the aspect that I did was how do we reframe it in the sense of

Maria Belanic (06:43)
Let's deal with things as they are, not what's going to come up. And I believe that's what helped us be a little bit more, not so much in the moment, but in a sense of saying, I'm not gonna worry about what's gonna happen in cancer until it happens. And then when it happens,

Maria Belanic (07:10)
It basically feels like okay, you're in it. How and for me it was more about how am I supporting my son rather than how am I dealing with it. And what I ended up figuring it out afterwards when he passed away is how much of the stress and the tension that I kept in my body. It was almost like I was holding my breath, I was bracing. But this was all done unconsciously.

Maria Belanic (07:40)
I wasn't conscious about it, if that makes sense. It's we when we're in it, that's all that we can focus on is when we're in it. I don't look at what the past was or what the future was. It's what is happening right in this present moment. And at the time I was working, and for me, I feel that real estate allowed me to take the time that I needed when the crises happened.

Maria Belanic (08:09)
To fully focus on my son. More so than say if I was working at a job and then you're worried about, can I still work? Can I spend time with my son? Because a lot of times when we're working, a lot of employers are only going to give you X amount of time to take for whatever crises happens or whatever happens in your life.

Jessie (08:38)
Yeah, that's a great point. So what what was your son's name?

Maria Belanic (08:45)
Stefan, thank you for asking.

Jessie (08:47)
Stefan. So after Stefan passed and you'd entered this unimaginable state of grief, can can you walk me through what led you from this devastating moment to wanting to be a resource for other parents or or for other people that are experiencing grief?

Maria Belanic (09:11)
It's more about in my journey is that at the beginning, yes, if anyone were to see me on the outside, they would probably go, wow, she's okay, she's functioning, she she's working, she's doing fundraisers, she's doing all of this, which is true. And what happens is many of us hide behind a mask. I know I did. It's the mask of I'm fine.

Maria Belanic (09:38)
And we don't really show what we're feeling, the numbness, the exhaustion of trying to keep it all together, how our bodies are hurting from lack of sleep, from either overeating or undereating, of just having that aspect of when you're still kind of bracing in some ways because there's this pain of the hurt of loss.

Maria Belanic (10:06)
And there's also the suffering that comes from the pain and also the the guilt that we feel of maybe not the the would-aves, the could-ofs, the should-oves. There's always the the regret of could I have done something more? Did I miss something? Did I not say the right words or all of these things that because we're human. And there's also then the aspect of shame, shame for grieving.

Maria Belanic (10:36)
Why am I still grieving? We're led to believe that we got to fix ourselves, that there's these words of there's a silver lining. What lessons did you learn? You have to get through it almost like there's a tunnel at the end of your journey. And I kind of like, there is no rainbow, no unicorn coming through the tunnel in all of a sudden of what's we expect that's going to be there.

Maria Belanic (11:06)
For a grieving person, and especially for a grieving parent, all we want is we want our person back. We would give anything to have our person back. And we know that that's not going to happen because that's the reality. The reality is we can't have our person come back alive. I wish we did have that magic wand that brings changes about or what we wish for to a certain time. And because of that.

Maria Belanic (11:36)
The reality is when you're in pain and what society is saying, then you're kind of going, so what else can I do? And for me personally, I thought, okay, so what courses can I do? one of the aspects is we always hear about personal development. And personal development is like you have control over your mind. You have control that if you change your thinking, everything will be fine.

Maria Belanic (12:06)
And that's a yes and a no. Yes, we can reframe our thinking, we can change the words that we use.

Maria Belanic (12:16)
But saying that I'm okay, that I'm fine, it would be like saying I'm a millionaire without taking the actions to do it. And that works the same way in grief. Is that when we acknowledge who we're being and that life is now different, that's the only way that we can move forward in our journey. Because a lot of times we feel that we're stuck, because stuck just means.

Maria Belanic (12:44)
We don't want to give up our person. We want to go back to a time when they were alive. We don't want to live in a world that they're no longer here, if that makes sense. And it's how do we live in a life now where they're no longer here? Can we laugh? I remember the first time that I laughed at something and I can't remember for what. And someone went, you're so much better now. And all of a sudden it felt like

Maria Belanic (13:13)
what have I done? I can't forget them. No, I gotta be miserable. So it's that warring factor inside of ourselves and for me to become that certified grief educator and supporting others is actually saying it's okay to have that moment of laughter. It's okay to have that moment of sadness. They both coexist and it doesn't mean anything.

Maria Belanic (13:41)
You can still miss your person, you can still miss your child and laugh at a memory, laugh at where you're doing right now what whatever you're enjoying. You can also be sad or angry, so all emotions are valid.

Jessie (13:59)
Do you ever f you know, I'm I'm curious now. Before you before you found a way to walk with grief rather than have it this thing that cast this shadow, did you find yourself talking about your son or bringing up memories or remember the time, you know, as Stefan you said, right, was his name?

Maria Belanic (14:23)
Yes, yeah, so true, Stefan.

Jessie (14:24)
You know,

Jessie (14:25)
Ste like remembering the time Stefan did this or that reminds me when he took his first steps. D do you do you find yourself engaging more in those memories now than, you know, initially while you were still yeah.

Maria Belanic (14:37)
Yeah, yeah, I do now. beforehand it was really painful. even looking at photos sometimes brought the tears. And that is natural. I I dislike using the word normal because normal feels like, okay, there's a right and a wrong to something. Natural is what is natural for you.

Maria Belanic (14:59)
without having any judgment on that and saying, okay, I'm a human being, this is what I'm feeling, and giving yourself compassion for it. And it really is. I mean, I've spoken to other parents and some people do have that support system where they feel that they can speak about their person, their child, say their name, share stories. Other people don't have that support.

Maria Belanic (15:27)
And I know personally for me, I didn't have that support. Whenever I brought up Stefan's name, it was like, there you go again. you know, you're being in that sad moment. And yes, at the rawness of it in the early years, there was tears every time I mentioned his name.

Maria Belanic (15:50)
And grief as I a not so much adjust, and that's the incorrect word. As I grow as a person living in grief, so does my grief. And this is one of the reasons why I say walking with grief. When we see grief as a companion, I don't know if people know the Charlie Brown commercial, and I think there was that Linus where he always had the the dust that kind of followed him.

Maria Belanic (16:20)
That in some

Jessie (16:20)
Yeah.

Maria Belanic (16:21)
ways is what grief is. It becomes that little dust that's always around us. And at times, then that dust becomes part of us. It's part of who we are. We don't look at it as being different. It's a companion we didn't really ask for, but it becomes a companion that we walk with.

Jessie (16:44)
Yeah. So in in those early stages when you again, when you're learning to walk with grief, at what point did it become clear to you that, you know, maybe I should help others w dealing with this?

Maria Belanic (17:04)
Hmm. So it was the point when one day I was looking at myself in the mirror and didn't recognize who I had become. And it was this fear that I had of the future. Of is this what my life is going to be now? We've all seen those movies in the sense of we see, you know, people walking out.

Maria Belanic (17:31)
buy this house and go, don't go there. That's the scary person. you know, their child passed away and this is what's going to become of them. And that stayed in my mind. And I kind of went, my God, that's who I'm becoming. That's who I am. And it wasn't really a conscious aspect. It was more about if this is how I'm feeling.

Maria Belanic (17:58)
Is if this is the way I feel that what's going to happen, again it comes back to who else feels this way? Who else is believing all the myths about the stages, all the things that we are told that's going to happen in grief, rather than saying, okay, if we walk with grief, I can honor myself.

Maria Belanic (18:25)
of who I am now because life is different. And I can honor my child, Stefan, and also for others, who your person is. Because really that's what walking with grief is. It's honoring yourself and your person. And because of that, at the time, I mean my son passed away in 2009. So today we have more awareness about grief.

Maria Belanic (18:56)
Back then we didn't. And that's what led me to say, I gotta be a support for someone else because someone else is going to feel like they're living in this limbo world, this in between. and I had a woman whose daughter had passed away 30 years ago. Her daughter was two years old when she died, and afterwards she never talked about her daughter.

Maria Belanic (19:26)
She never shared anything. And when she came to me, even afterwards, I gave her that space, that permission to say, it's okay to talk about your child. It's okay to share her story if you want to. But share the memories that you have. And she started doing that. She even started talking to her other children about their sister.

Maria Belanic (19:56)
And all of a sudden she felt a lightness in herself that she hadn't felt in years.

Jessie (20:04)
Yeah, I think that's extremely powerful. So what was it like, you know, you have this idea to help others? What was that journey like to become to become that resource? So like, you know, you mentioned that you're a grief counselor. So what was it like essentially training to do that? And, you know, I I would find it incredibly difficult

Jessie (20:29)
to talk to someone else about their grief without also maybe like crying with them. So how do you, how do you maintain this safe space while also preserving your own, you know, just preserving your own emotions and trying not to be be someone else in the room who's crying. I'm a bit of an empath, so I find that that would be incredibly difficult for me. But I'm curious what what that process was like and then how you actually are able to do that.

Maria Belanic (20:56)
Well, my certification is from David Kessler, who's a world renowned trauma and grief specialist.

Maria Belanic (21:04)
And I also know, even for myself, you're right. I only took the certification when I knew that I was able to sit with someone else and allow their grief to be their grief. And I'm there witnessing their grief and supporting them. Because when I'm with someone, it's about them, not my grief. And so there's a that separation. And I know I've had cli clients ask me that too.

Maria Belanic (21:34)
Is my story making you sad? How can you not take it in? And I'm going, it's not that your story's not sad or what you're experiencing isn't sad. This is your experience. This is your relationship. This is your person. I'm here for your grief, not mine. And that's why you hired me. And so there is that separation of that. And one of the things that I've found.

Maria Belanic (22:03)
Is that if we start to cry, or it actually means that then it's my grief that is coming up. I'm not crying because I'm hearing the other person's story. I'm crying because of my own grief. And so there is a distinction of that. And I totally get in regards to when you're saying you're an empath, because we do feel compassion for someone else. We feel empathy for someone else.

Maria Belanic (22:33)
The difference is I'm not taking their grief on as my own.

Jessie (22:39)
Yeah, I I I think that's a talent for sure. I am not capable of that. I have I know a lot of folks who are like, I couldn't do that. you know, I I unfortunately have you know, I have lost friends and those friends were someone's children and I'm

Maria Belanic (22:56)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie (22:56)
friends with their parents, so always lives in the back of my mind of, you know, how are they doing? How are they walking with their own grief? I

Jessie (23:06)
I I j I wanted to make a comment on on something you said about kind of sharing the the memories. There's a like a a philosophical concept of existence and it it's mentioned briefly in the Kite Runner. the protagonist's father talks about this. It's it's an like an Indian proverb. I don't wanna say Indian 'cause I'm not necessarily necessarily sure. I would say like just s to that region of the world, but the the concept is that, you know

Jessie (23:35)
We exist in the mind of others. So our existence is not just

Maria Belanic (23:38)
Mm.

Jessie (23:39)
the the physical your your physical presence on earth, but it's also your presence and your ability to exist in the minds of others. So you you keep a memory alive by sharing the sharing the memory. So there's a the concept is that you don't truly ever die until the last memory of you do no longer exists. So as long as the memory is being shared, a

Jessie (24:04)
part of you lives on as a memory in someone else. Right. So I

Maria Belanic (24:08)
Yeah.

Jessie (24:08)
I've never met there's a woman on my search and rescue team who lost her son to a motorcycle accident several years ago. I've never met her son. He passed away before I ev ever met her. But she she shares his story. She shares the memories. She's on a hike and she thinks about the time she hiked with her son. She shares that. So I wasn't there, but now I I know, you know, I I I've

Maria Belanic (24:30)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie (24:31)
experienced

Jessie (24:32)
second second hand that memory that she's sharing and now he exists in my mind. So kind of the journey continues. So I'm I'm a I'm a huge proponent of what you're saying. And it's good to know that it's not just my philosophical craziness of no share share the memory. Talk to me about them. Talk to me about Stefan. Tell me what he was like as a kid. for for me selfishly it's let's keep him alive, you know, in some

Maria Belanic (24:59)
Yeah.

Jessie (24:59)
capacity.

Jessie (25:01)
So just my my own two cents there, not being a grief counselor, but that's kind of where where I've always taken it. so I guess my my next question, Connie, getting into the the grief counseling with you know, that's an amazing certification. I am somewhat familiar. I did a little bit of homework and I'll leave some links to to your website obviously in the description for folks to to check it out. So from here, so you you received your certification. What was it like when you

Jessie (25:31)
got your first, I I don't know if you refer to them as clients, but what was it like when you got your first client?

Maria Belanic (25:40)
Yeah it's like an validation. I think with anything that we start off new, there's also those self-doub. I I think that's a human nature of self-doubts. Am I really cut out for this? Am I really the right person? All of these aspects. And many people that I've spoken to who have degrees and everything like that still have the the self-doubt aspect and I'm finding okay that

Maria Belanic (26:09)
definitely is a human trait. What I found was when I had my clients afterwards noticing

Maria Belanic (26:21)
How lightness enters. They come in with this invisible heaviness. And I say invisible because it's not like we're carrying a weight, like a visible weight that we see. Grief is invisible. It's a weight that we have in our body that is not seen. And at times it could be layers upon layers of wounds that we've had in the past, of recent wounds.

Maria Belanic (26:50)
And what I've noticed is that there's this lightness even within the hour that they're there. And one of it is because I believe that many of us put judgment on ourselves. Judgments for what we've chosen, judgment for our language, judgment for what things we've done or haven't done.

Maria Belanic (27:17)
And I allow a space that says how you are is how you are, and you're accepted for who you are right now.

Jessie (27:33)
That's a great way to put it. I yeah, I I think there's always a bit of imposter syndrome for for a lot of us. this space I think is incredibly unique. I have heard of other grief counselors who they themselves haven't experienced the magnitude of the grief that they have decided to specialize in. And not that I think that should be a requirement or anything, but I think it's it's an interesting dynamic.

Jessie (27:59)
Seeing a grief counselor. I know for me sometimes I'm like, do they truly understand? You know, when you're going to counseling or talking about a particular issue, it's like, do they ever do they truly understand? And I I think sometimes the answer is no, but I think the dynamic for you, and I think the automatic level of respect is like I'm talking to someone else who has experienced this grief that's so I can't even explain it. so there's like a

Jessie (28:28)
This underlying, like, okay, I I'm comfortable, I feel like they understand me, that you bring to the table. that I think in my conversations with some some other parents who have believe the term is bereaved parents, I there's a of this that sentiment. Like, well, I mean, I could talk to them about it and I could talk to a counselor, but it's like no one's ever truly gonna understand. And I'm like, yeah, I I know I don't.

Jessie (28:56)
You know, I can I can listen and I can do my best to understand, but yeah, but I've never lived it, right? So not that everybody's grief is the same, but I think that's a concept. Do do you do you agree with that statement or maybe there's some more nuance that you can shed some light on?

Maria Belanic (29:13)
Well, there's the nuances in regards to the relationship that we have with our person. and as a bereaved parent, as a mom, it's gonna might be different than what a dad has or a sibling. So when and the same thing I've had widowers, and so the relationship is gonna be different, and there's nuances in that. What you said is actually quite correct in I believe, and I'm gonna use it as a a different aspect. So

Maria Belanic (29:43)
When we're wanting to lose weight and we go to see someone who's going to help us do, you know, lose weight and and be trim, if someone has never had a weight issue, it's a little bit harder to have someone who's constantly been fit to say, this is what you have to do without understanding the struggle of how to get there or the struggle with food.

Maria Belanic (30:10)
And that's what I believe in grief also. Yes, there are some fantastic therapists out there. And sometimes that may be who you need.

Maria Belanic (30:22)
rather than someone who's lived the experience. And I believe it's the person who wants support that is only going to to know what they need. If that makes sense.

Jessie (30:39)
That's a phenomenal comparison because I've talked about that in the past on this podcast. specifically the the weight training piece when I was sharing my weight loss journey and I finally found a trainer. I was like, I found someone who knows the struggle. And and that was a a big thing for me because it was important for me as the client who was looking for support. So that's that's awesome. awesome example, and I appreciate that. Cause sometimes I'm like, is this is this a way to think about it? I

Jessie (31:08)
It's hard to have conversations like these with with other people because it's like Jesse's going down the rabbit hole again, you know? so I I appreciate you shedding shedding that light and I think that was a a fair statement. So yeah. Yeah.

Maria Belanic (31:21)
A sense of curiosity because I I always

Maria Belanic (31:23)
feel like we're going to know who's a right fit for us and who's not by having that conversation. And there are people who at times will say, I don't want anyone who's had experience, I want a full-blown therapist or counselor, and that's okay. There are others who have gone to therapists and counselors and come out going, they didn't get me, they were asking the same thing over and over again. And so

Maria Belanic (31:51)
I kind of go, who is it that you need at this time? And sometimes that can change. In different times of our lives or in different parts of our journey. We may need someone different than we've worked with beforehand.

Jessie (32:10)
curious have you have you heard of the movie I believe it's called Empty Rooms?

Maria Belanic (32:18)
No, I haven't. Is that something new or is that an older?

Jessie (32:20)
So

Jessie (32:22)
it is it's fairly recent and and I'll I'll send you some information. I'll leave that information in the video description

Maria Belanic (32:27)
What do you think?

Jessie (32:28)
as well. So there's a documentary, like there's there's no way to watch this documentary. I don't care who you are without just shedding a slight tear. So Empty Rooms is an independent documentary. I believe it won a Sundance Award. it

Maria Belanic (32:42)
Mm.

Jessie (32:42)
was filmed in b independent movie again, essentially

Jessie (32:49)
I forget his name. He interviewed parents who lost their children to school shootings.

Maria Belanic (32:57)
Mm.

Jessie (32:58)
And it went to all of their houses, and the empty room is the empty child's bedroom. And it kind of reviewed all of that. It was more so this impact that we we never really consider is that absolutely terrible situation, absolutely horrible.

Jessie (33:17)
But it lived for a moment on the news, but there is a parent, there's a family, there are people on the other end of this that are impacted by that. So the the concept of empty room is like there are hundreds, probably more, of these empty rooms that exist in people's houses and families' houses for that loved one who's never going to return, and it's the preservation of their memory, especially being so young. It's extremely impactful, and I think it really sheds some light on.

Jessie (33:47)
a lot of the work and how important the work is that you're doing because it really it really brings it down, right? Brings it down to earth and it it puts it right on your television screens. Like these parents are dealing with something else and this yes, this this empty room concept is incredibly sad, but every time you hear of someone who has passed away, there is potentially a parent who is now living with that you know, walking with that grief. So

Maria Belanic (34:16)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie (34:17)
For parents or for anybody who is experiencing grief and is looking for resources and support, or let me back up, what would you say, or how do you approach someone who maybe isn't ready for that level of support, but they are struggling with their grief? W would what advice would you provide someone who's like, I don't know if I want a grief counselor? This is something that is is like you're saying, having this physiological effect?

Maria Belanic (34:46)
Mm-hmm. And what I would tell someone is that if they're not ready, and that's okay. Because support is there for when they are ready. One of the aspects that I kind of use is permission to exhale. It's what my work is based on, is because a lot of times in grief we're going around holding our breath. And in some ways,

Maria Belanic (35:16)
It's parallel to the empty room or the empty chair. And for because when you said that, I I did, I envisioned the the empty room. Because I totally get that. And a lot of people will see that empty room as being, you're building a shrine. Well, it's not really a shrine. It what it is is that.

Maria Belanic (35:41)
Their child existed. And for the rest of the world, as you said, the news flashes for that minute, and then it's gone. For these families, that is their forever.

Maria Belanic (35:55)
And that is a way for them to remember their child, that their child existed. And for any parent who has experienced loss, you have every right to say your child's name. Your child existed. And by you sharing their stories, even if it's full of tears or anger, that's okay. Because that is natural.

Maria Belanic (36:26)
You're leaving a legacy. You're sharing their story, their life, because their life matters.

Maria Belanic (36:34)
And as you said, Jesse, it's part of leaving a legacy of who lived this earth. As long as we're here, we can say it. And coming back to the support, at times people may not be ready for support because our bodies need that aspect of that numbness because our brain is protecting us. And sometimes in that first year.

Maria Belanic (37:05)
We live in a numbness. We know who died, but it feels so surreal. It feels like when is the nightmare going to be over and I'm gonna wake up? And it was all a dream.

Maria Belanic (37:22)
And so that person's gonna know when they're going to need support. And sometimes it may be in year five, or it may be in three months when it happened. It's however they are when they're ready to talk.

Jessie (37:40)
And then for for individuals who have reached a point where I I've done grief therapy as a group therapy. I'm not a fan of group therapy, but it was a resource that was provided to me. that obviously, well maybe not so obviously for I know you're in Canada, but I'm sure this is a concept that transcends, you know, international boundaries but or borders, but

Jessie (38:09)
For a lot of veterans who go through the Department of Veterans Affairs, which is the medical resource for us once we've separated from service, they provide one-on-one counseling, but it it it's very limited, right? You get to a point where they feel like you are better. And

Jessie (38:27)
for a lot of veterans like myself at one point who struggle with the am I better or did I just finish the 13 sessions that you've prescribed me?

Jessie (38:37)
They they give you a bunch of other resources, and a lot of those other resources are you know, it's coming from a cost perspective, are a group therapy session. So I chose a few of the the group therapy sessions centered around grief, survivor's guilt and things like that. But it took me a really long time to actually like make the appointment. But when I was ready, you know, I have friends who ask me, like, how did you know you were ready? And I was like, honestly.

Jessie (39:05)
Dude, I just made the appointment and forced myself to go. So

Maria Belanic (39:08)
Mm.

Jessie (39:10)
for folks like that who I would classify that as ready, how how does that process work with you specifically? So how does someone get referred to you or reach out to you? And yeah, let's just start there.

Maria Belanic (39:27)
Okay, so people can reach out to me at hope at mariablanic.com and I offer both one-on-one. And also I'm going to be having a group program in late fall this year. And really what the group program is, and it's usually small groups, about eight people. And the reason for that is not so much that I'm coaching, is that it's more about building community.

Maria Belanic (39:55)
One of the aspects in having groups is because you don't want to feel like you're the only one that is experiencing this. A lot of times when we're the only one, we feel like we're isolated and we become more isolated because then we feel like, nobody's gonna listen to me. No one understands what I'm experiencing. And part and part of the group and the community.

Maria Belanic (40:25)
Is that it's not going to be exactly the same, it will be similar. Because none of us, two people could have gone and experienced exactly the same, but what they're going to be feeling and how they experience it is going to be different because of our personalities. And so we kind of weed that in two. I do facilitate groups, which right now.

Maria Belanic (40:53)
Is through the David Castler. And even within the groups, it's about making it safe where people can share. It's again, it's that no one's right and no one's wrong. Everyone is sharing from their point of view. And when you're sharing from that, no one's wrong. No one's right. It's your experience. It's your life that.

Maria Belanic (41:21)
has experienced this and this is what you're feeling at this moment. And I don't believe as you say this word better. We don't get better. We carry it differently.

Maria Belanic (41:37)
If that makes sense. I I I prefer the words we carry. right? Because I'm

Jessie (41:41)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. I agree.

Maria Belanic (41:44)
thinking it's the same way where I've seen there's grief recovery. And I'm going, but recovering from what? We how do we recover from trauma? We don't.

Jessie (41:57)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maria Belanic (41:59)
We learn how to

Maria Belanic (41:59)
carry it differently. It's acknowledging it and knowing that it's there and also discovering ways where we're not living in the pain and where we're not making ourselves suffer for what we've experienced.

Jessie (42:18)
Yeah, no, that's fair. I I should also clarify my experience with group therapy was that sense of validation. Okay, I'm not the only one who's experiencing this. I I was able to make a lot of friends. I would call them friends at this point, as part of that. I think the way the US healthcare system, specifically the veteran healthcare system, views things is that there was like a syllabus.

Jessie (42:45)
And I didn't

Jessie (42:45)
really I mean, and that's fine. Like I I can understand having a treatment plan, but it felt more of like a syllabus. And then at the end of that, you were expected to pass the class. But there was no, you know, like what does passing the class mean? Is that again that better piece? And it

Maria Belanic (43:01)
Mm.

Jessie (43:01)
what would would have been slightly better, but I again I agree with how how you frame it is like, you know, for them from this giant institution is okay, have you given me the tools that I need to

Jessie (43:14)
manage this in a way that I can improve my overall quality of life without having, you know, this for lack of a better term, like depression, which I do prefer carrying it. I don't think that there's any way to fully encompass what a quote end result would be other than just walking with it, carrying it. So I really, really like that. Anybody from the VA who's listening, please write this down. because yeah, I I I agree.

Jessie (43:43)
So I think that's phenomenal. I think that's a I think that's great. I also like the fact that it's a smaller group. I think I was in a group size of of thirty. it was a classroom, essenti essentially.

Maria Belanic (43:52)
It's hard.

Jessie (43:56)
And then at one point it became like just this giant circle, and then we had individual circles. I understand that they're doing the best with the best that they can with the resources that they have. It all boils down to funding.

Maria Belanic (44:05)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie (44:07)
So yeah, I I also wanted to kind of give you the opportunity, because I know you've been interviewed before.

Jessie (44:13)
Have is there anything that you would like to talk about that maybe you haven't really had the ability to talk about on other podcasts or other platforms?

Maria Belanic (44:22)
Well, actually I have my own platform. Right?

Jessie (44:24)
that's right. That's right.

Jessie (44:26)
Let's talk a little bit about that. What's let's yeah, let's talk about a little bit about that 'cause I think that's a phenomenal resource as well.

Maria Belanic (44:33)
Okay, so it is called Walking with Grief and it's conversations, either with myself or I have my guests that are bereaved parents. And what it showcases, the conversations, is how do we make grief a topic that is spoken about? Because a lot of times it's the same aspect. When you said you're a veteran, as a veteran, I'm gonna kind of frame it back.

Maria Belanic (45:03)
Is that a lot of times, unless you're surrounded with other veterans, is when you could share openly about your experience. Because other people will hear it and kind of go, okay, there they go again. And that's what we feel in the grief world is that when you start sharing about grief or you use grief as a topic, most people will go, okay, yeah, can we talk about something different? And so walking with grief is about having these conversations.

Maria Belanic (45:32)
That are open, where we can discuss anything. And a lot of times that's where these conversations go. They may start off with a question and then we're in a different tangent. Because a lot of times in grief, there's different things that maybe we wonder about, what we're curious about. However, life happens still around us to us. So we're also having conversations about that. Because it's not

Maria Belanic (46:02)
As we say, grief is part of who I am. It doesn't define who I am. I'm still living life. I still go to the grocery store. I still have to make appointments for other aspects of life. And that's what I want to showcase is that yes, maybe our trauma experienced from one aspect. And it is part of us. I want to always acknowledge that whatever trauma we have, we don't forget about it.

Maria Belanic (46:33)
It lives in us. It's how do we make it softer so that way we're not suffering from it. And also these conversations help to do that in bringing an openness and an awareness to what anyone has experienced.

Jessie (46:53)
Yeah, you know, I Steve Irwin's wife, Terry Irwin, has been interviewed a

Maria Belanic (46:58)
Mm.

Jessie (46:58)
lot since his passing, and she's often asked, you know, what there's this like life before and then there's life after. And for some people, it and maybe you can relate, you know, there's life before Stefan got sick, there's life after he got sick, there's life before he passed, there's life after he passed. There's like these giant milestones. and she basically said, you know, there was a turning point. Just like there was a turning point.

Jessie (47:23)
before my kids were born and that you know now that they're they're here. So she frames it the same way. I actually took that quote directly from her, where she says the same thing, you know, I grief is this shadow that's with me. It walks with me everywhere. It's a companion. and it's just getting used to this companion. Getting used to that being there and knowing like, you know, instead of being stuck and not wanting to go out because you don't want to see this shadow, it's nope.

Jessie (47:50)
Me in the shadow, we're going to the grocery store, we're going to a concert, we're gonna go get drinks with our friends, we're gonna do all the other amazing things that she does. and I I think it was an interesting way to frame it. But I I also appreciate folks asking her the question. And, you know, I and I appreciate you allowing me to ask the question as well, because I I don't know much about it. I'm always eager to learn. But I guess the the thing for me that I would I would selfishly ask is.

Jessie (48:19)
For someone someone like myself who doesn't have children, and I find out that a friend has lost their child, I feel like there are certain things that we just shouldn't say, or maybe don't say it in this way. So I'll give you an example. a friend of mine lost their son to a rare genetic disease. he was only a couple of months. And

Jessie (48:45)
The one thing that she immediately corrected me on, and I I appreciated her more than ever for correcting me was that, you know, I picked her up to take her to lunch. I was like, hey, I thought I'd give you a little break. And she was like, give me a break. She was like, there's no such thing as a break. My son is in the hospital. And I was like, shit, yeah, you're you're right. I'm so sorry. And it was just thing that like she just opened my eyes to the reality of her situation.

Jessie (49:14)
But not a lot of people correct others, right? she's always been a very vocal person. So I expected nothing less from her. But for someone who is is dealing with someone who not dealing with someone, but like who's trying to talk to someone who is experiencing this, what would what is your advice on how to approach or, you know, talk about it with them, especially in those early stages?

Maria Belanic (49:38)
And that's a valid question and really awesome that you're asking her. Thank you so much. And it really is. For people who want to support, sometimes the easiest thing is I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. I want to support you in any way that I can. And if that means I'm just going to sit with you in silence, then that's okay. Right? Because a lot of times grievers may not know what they need, which is fine. sometimes you could bring boxes of tissue.

Maria Belanic (50:09)
someone else had said that's one of the gifts that they had gotten because they were crying all the time. And someone without saying you're crying a lot, here, you know, here's a something that I brought to you that you may need, or or things like that, or even bringing them food. But one of the things that I find is that everyone seems to be attentive to a griever at the beginning. Then months on or years later.

Maria Belanic (50:38)
When the person really needs support, no support is there. Sometimes just as quick, I'm thinking of you. You're in my thoughts. Or I was thinking of, and you name their child or their person. Something you know, I came across and this reminded me of you both. It's to show that you remember their person and them. One of the things that I always say is never say at least, never start any sentence.

Maria Belanic (51:08)
with at least or tell someone that their person is in a better place.

Maria Belanic (51:17)
Things like that or yeah.

Jessie (51:17)
Interest yeah. Yeah.

Jessie (51:21)
That's a really good point. Yeah. No, I you know, I I lost a good friend of mine a few years ago. I still talked to her mom and last last I remember, I haven't brought it up in a while, but she's never visited her grave site. It's too

Maria Belanic (51:35)
Yeah.

Jessie (51:36)
hard for her. But 'cause I I wanted you know, she passed away and I was living in California and she's in New York. So I asked her mom for some information so I could go visit her when I was

Jessie (51:47)
When I was back on the East Coast and I asked her if she would, you know, be willing to join me, and she was like, No no. She's like, I haven't brought my I haven't been able to to do that. But what I I f for her for her in managing and walking with her grief is that she she sees things that remind her of

Jessie (52:12)
She shares those, but she's just

Maria Belanic (52:14)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie (52:15)
not at the point where she can go visit her. I I I don't know. I I find those sometimes, you know, I I and I respect that. but I find sometimes that there are people in our lives who try to push their version of healing. How how would you and not for the other way? I wouldn't ask about how the griever would deal with that, but.

Jessie (52:39)
How does someone recognize that? How what was the how would you recommend someone recognizes the the you know the their prescription of healing? So for example, let's say in that situation I told her you should really visit her, you know, it'll really give you closure. If I said that to her, that's probably the last thing that she would want to hear. But I know her and she probably just wouldn't say anything to me. So how do you recommend folks check themselves a little bit? You know what I mean? Yeah.

Maria Belanic (53:08)
Say, yeah,

Maria Belanic (53:09)
it and it's true. a lot of times we say things without thinking. I get that. one of the the aspects is kind of put put it back as to say, well, if someone told me this, you're going to need to go here because you need closure, that all of a sudden just puts your hackles up. And

Jessie (53:32)
Right.

Maria Belanic (53:32)
it may be meant with love. One of the aspects I always go is that.

Maria Belanic (53:37)
How a person grieves is their way. We cannot put judgment on someone. It would be the same thing. We're gonna go back to the weight aspect of how someone eats something. We can't make that judgment on what they eat or don't eat. And as human beings, we judge people all the time.

Maria Belanic (54:02)
And so we're judging people of how they're grieving. And that's what it comes across as. So one of the things is kind of say, and it was nice, and I appreciate that you said, would you like to come with me? And then have her have the choice of saying yes or no. And leave it at that because she knows what's best for her. We

Jessie (54:27)
Right.

Maria Belanic (54:27)
only know what's best for ourselves.

Jessie (54:30)
Yeah, I find that a lot in the veteran community specifically is, you know, there are a lot of veterans and a lot of veterans who experience some unimaginable things and have ex to include loss of fellow service members. And I feel like sometimes we we push on others our course of treatment. Right? This is what you need to do to get over this to live a good life, or you need to check on your buddies.

Jessie (54:56)
And you need to do this, and this is the way things are supposed to be. But then everyone has their own flavor of that. So

Maria Belanic (55:02)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie (55:03)
it feels like a lot of like these are the things that you should be doing. And if you don't, then, you know, that person's gre you know, that person's depression is now your fault because you didn't do your job as a fellow service member. So that's that's also more so what I was getting at is that for me I've been a huge advocate of just ask them what they want or what they need.

Jessie (55:24)
I try not to prescribe, but I think sometimes we get in these situations where we've we don't think before we do.

Maria Belanic (55:31)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie (55:31)
So with that though, I just this is an interesting topic for me. And there's so many, I think there's so many rabbit holes I could go down specifically. Like, you know, are there any is there anything I I'll kind of switch gears a little bit because my mind is going a mile, a million a million miles an hour. Do you find that there's anything that you recommend or

Jessie (55:52)
maybe the things that you don't recommend, but are there things that you've seen that help your pa your patients or clients with grief? Like do you find that a lot of them like to go for walks or be in nature or sit in silence? Are there any other like modalities for healing that you that you seek like recurring?

Maria Belanic (56:12)
think yeah part of that is you're right I mean whether it's walking hiking running swimming any movement type is always good right and so that the whole range of movement could be whatever that person enjoys doing there's also the the stillness I always go have so usually for my clients I will kind of say have a dedicated time where you can be with your grief

Maria Belanic (56:41)
And what that is is that you set up a ritual of saying, okay, and you know when it starts and you know when it ends.

Jessie (56:49)
Yeah.

Maria Belanic (56:49)
And so

Maria Belanic (56:50)
and and then so that's your designated time. There's also journaling, like writing letters, journaling your thoughts. And I do have journals that I give out in the sense of here's some prompts. And all of them are about having a non-judgment feel to it. Because a lot of times we could get journals and all of a sudden it's like when you just ask the question, so how do you feel? Well, that's so open ended that you're kind of like, what the are you telling me? Like.

Maria Belanic (57:19)
and I don't ever want to have someone feel like they have to journal. It's not. Sometimes it could be one line, like how are you feeling right this moment? And it could be, I feel like crap. Or other

Jessie (57:32)
Yeah.

Maria Belanic (57:33)
times it could be a whole splue. One of the things that I always recommend is don't read as you're writing, because that stops

Jessie (57:41)
Mm.

Maria Belanic (57:42)
the flow of what you're feeling in your heart and it takes you to your head.

Maria Belanic (57:48)
'Cause a lot of

Jessie (57:48)
Yeah.

Maria Belanic (57:48)
times our head and our hearts are battling.

Jessie (57:52)
Yeah. You know, it's it's it's interesting that you said that and I'm I'm trying to place where I saw this, but there was a woman whose son had either passed away or went missing years ago, fifteen, twenty years ago. And every Wednesday she writes him a letter.

Maria Belanic (58:08)
Mm.

Jessie (58:09)
But not like I wish you were here or just things that she would tell him if he was still here. Like if they if she picked up the phone and called him, she'd be like, You'll never believe what Aunt Maureen did, you know, the

Jessie (58:21)
That's that sort of has helped her. I'm a big fan of journaling, I think. Pen to paper just clicked for humans, whether it was cave paintings or pen and ink, you know, all all of that seems to there's some sort of wiring, this predisposition for a release that that we have. So no, that's that's

Maria Belanic (58:42)
No.

Jessie (58:43)
awesome. And I think the last thing I wanted to ask you was a little bit more.

Jessie (58:53)
You know, types of types of grief. Is there, would you classify grief in any other way? I I've seen things, and that's why I'm asking this, that there are like types of grief or levels of grief. There's these stages of grief, I think is actually how it's put. What's your

Maria Belanic (59:08)
Yeah.

Jessie (59:08)
opinion on that? Because it sounds like grief is grief. There's no you can slice it and dice it however you want. Is is that an accurate assumption?

Maria Belanic (59:17)
I personally believe there are no stages, and I ain't going, and actually, that's one of the conversations I'm going to be having with one of my guests because she believes in the stages, not in a linear way, but she does believe in them, and I don't. Where I find the the nuances, I find grief is grief. There are nuances in say the type of grief in the sense of if it's your spouse or partner who passed away is going to be.

Maria Belanic (59:46)
feeling different in the sense of the nuances when it's your child. And there's also nuances if your child is, I mean, I say child. Stefan died when he was 27. So to me, he's always my child. I always go child is from nanosecond to a hundred years. When you're a parent, it's always like that. There's going to be a difference whether someone died from death by suicide or addiction or they were murdered.

Maria Belanic (01:00:16)
There's also a different nuance if your spouse or partner passed away when they were younger or if they were older. And so the relationship matters. One of the conversations I had with my guest was about genders. Do male and female grieve differently if you're a mom or you're a dad? Are there similarities or are there differences? And to me, it always comes back to.

Maria Belanic (01:00:46)
the relationship you had with your person and who your personality is. Those are the nuances of grief. You may feel anger, you may feel frustration, disappointment, betrayal. There's so many different emotions. Not everyone's going to feel the same emotions or to the same intensity. I'm going to use an example of say faith.

Maria Belanic (01:01:14)
Some people are going to be angry in their faith and say at the divine, at God. Others are going to use it as an embracing and leaning in. Neither one of them is right or wrong. It's how we express our grief and our emotions.

Jessie (01:01:35)
that's that's well put. I I always found the stages of grief. I'm like, what stage am I in today? Because I don't know. You know what I mean? Where's the rule book for this? so no, it's it's great to hear you say that. 'cause I always thought I was nuts. I'm like, you you see you read all these blogs and, you know, medical journals and things like that that, you know, treatments that classify grief in these stages will

Jessie (01:02:00)
First you're gonna go through this and then you're gonna go through this and then you'll be out of grief. Gri you've finished the the stages of grief. And I'm like, cool, what what's the ETA on the end of this? Yeah.

Maria Belanic (01:02:07)
Mm-hmm. Well it comes back

Maria Belanic (01:02:11)
so true. It comes back to the same thing as you said. When we're going through something and then someone goes, you're better now. Well, better from what? Maybe I feel calm in this moment compared to what, like an hour ago, that when maybe I was frustrated and angry. And so sometimes the words we say even to ourselves or to each other really matter.

Maria Belanic (01:02:36)
Because a lot of times what may work for you or land with you to someone else could be disrespectful. I dislike the word healing for the longest of times. Because it's kind of like, well, what am I healing? It's not a bone that's broken. And even when our bone heals, if it's broken and it's healed, it's never exactly the same as it was before it broke.

Jessie (01:03:04)
Yep. Well that's yeah. I a friend of mine, friend Johnny, pa he passed away.

Jessie (01:03:14)
He he would always say that he was he was all messed up and that he was put back together wrong, but the wrong was still a person. And after he passed away we would we would joke about him. He would he would have these crazy analogies and yeah, I I laugh. His his Yeah.

Maria Belanic (01:03:32)
I love that analogy. It's like the Japanese,

Maria Belanic (01:03:35)
there's that where they put the vases together and then they line it with gold. So you see the brokenness.

Jessie (01:03:42)
right. Yep.

Maria Belanic (01:03:44)
And there's the beauty in the brokenness, because even the brokenness allows light to enter.

Jessie (01:03:49)
Yeah.

Jessie (01:03:50)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. He was he he was a very he he had a different viewpoint on things. He had a he had an interesting way of looking at the world and at life. And yeah, that was one of the things that he would say all the time and it it cracked me up. It still does. But I I wanted to ask a question before we wrap this up. First, is is there anything else that you'd like to talk about before we wrap this up? And then

Maria Belanic (01:04:15)
Well, grief is my topic.

Jessie (01:04:17)
Yeah

Jessie (01:04:18)
And then I would ask to end this on a light note, if you wouldn't mind sharing a funny or favorite memory you have of stuff.

Maria Belanic (01:04:26)
Hmm. Well, one of the things when he was a child, he always had he was sassy when he was a little boy, and his younger brother was taller than he was. So my younger son has always been taller and larger, he had a bigger build. And whenever anyone would ask him about, so you're the younger one, he goes, No, I'm older, but I'm smarter and cuter.

Jessie (01:04:57)
he was sassy, huh? Yeah. That's

Maria Belanic (01:05:00)
Yeah, yeah.

Jessie (01:05:01)
that's funny. No, I just yeah, I thought like I said, I think it's nice to to share the memories and I appreciate you for that. So again, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you for for coming on and if you wouldn't mind, where what is your website?

Maria Belanic (01:05:17)
So my website is mariabalanic.com.

Jessie (01:05:20)
Awesome. Okay. And then I will leave a link to everything, including your email, in the video description. So thank you.

Maria Belanic (01:05:25)
Well thank you and thank you

Maria Belanic (01:05:27)
so much. This has been a a lovely conversation. and of course, and I love how you're helping in the veterans area and that is grief in what they've experienced and to come back and have people sort of downplay the experience when you've been somewhere else.

Maria Belanic (01:05:54)
And so I find that there's the parallel between trauma and grief.

Jessie (01:05:59)
Yep, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, I looked forward to to following your journey and watching your podcast, listening to your podcast, and maybe even having you back on one of these days. So thank

Maria Belanic (01:06:12)
Yeah.

Jessie (01:06:12)
you.

Maria Belanic (01:06:13)
Well thank you so much. And I it's such an honor to be speaking with you.